S:I agree. But I also do not believe in oligopolies – or a monopoly – of nuclear terror. Do you?

-The point I was trying to make : it’s bad enough as it is. Adding more members to the “nuclear club” will only make it harder to get rid of the damn things altogether and also increase the danger of someone actually using them. At least the current mob have not used any since 1945.

N:I am not silent on Israel’s possession of such weapons. It is a well known fact.

S:So far, on this blog, you have been silent about this.

-O.K. Israel has nuclear weapons. I wish they did not. I wish nobody had any.

N:And I am fairly certain that certain Arab countries will be very happy (without publicly acknowledging it) , if the Israelis destroy Iran’s nuclear capability.

S:Proof please.

-There was a report in the Sunday Times that Saudi Arabia would not prevent Israel from using their airspace to destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities.However, both Israel and Saudi Arabia denied that such an arrangement existed.

-Iranian born journalist Amit Taheri writes :
“The Shura devoted a recent session to “the Iranian threat,” insisting that unless Tehran abandoned its nuclear program, Saudi Arabia should lead the Arabs in developing their own “nuclear response.” The debate came just days after the foreign ministry in Riyadh issued a report identifying the Islamic Republic’s nuclear program as the “principal security threat to Arab nations.”

S:In any case, so what?

-Just to point out that it not only Israel and other “Western” countries that are nervous about Iran’s nuclear ambitions.

S:Would’ Arab countries’ (you really believe that countries ‘think’!)

-Playing with semantics is a bit childish, Syd, and adds nothing to your argument.

S:also “be very happy (without publicly acknowledging it) , if the Iranians destroy Israel’s nuclear capability”.

-They probably would be if there were no far-reaching consequences.

S:Even if they would, would that justify a preemptive attack on Israel?

-Under certain circumstances, it might.

N:I would also love to see Israelis and Palestinians live in peace.

S:How about ending apartheid and living together as equal citizens in a normal democratic State? The ‘South African solution’, in other words.

-That would be fantastic. All we need is a Palestinian Nelson Mandela.

I have seen several documentaries with ordinary Israelis and Palestinians getting together and developing an understanding of what the other party is going through and realising that they are all just humans, held hostage to a crazy, perverted political situation, perpetuated by fanatics on both sides.I think these people actually have very much in common with each other.

S:Personally, I’m tired of Jewish exceptionalism.

-You bring up over a hundred years of Iranian history and foreign intervention in that country.
Certainly one cannot look at the Israeli mindset, without taking into consideration their previous hundred years of history.I am willing to look at both sides of the argument.

S:As for Lebanon, it’s a stretch to claim that Israel was ‘just another meddling party’.

-I was referring to the long history of countries like Syria and Iran (and the French and others before them) interfering in Lebanon’s affairs and the complexity of the political situation there, with so many different parties involved. Of course for the PLO and later Hezbollah to use Lebanon and using it as a launching pad to attack Israel was not helpful.

-The latest conflict between Israel and Lebanon was a reaction to rocket attacks by Hezbollah. Israel’s reaction was devastating and over the top and I was appalled by it. Yet those who provoked it would have been well aware of the possible consequences. So why did they do it ? How many civilians were they prepared to sacrifice to further their cause?

S:Provide credible references if you intend making assertions such as these here.

N:They call for the destruction of Israel

-Utterances by the leaders of Iran and Hamas are well documented, although there was some debate about the exact translation of what Ahmadinejad had said.

N: execute gay people

-”According to the Iranian gay and lesbian rights group Homan,the Iranian government. an estimated 4,000 homosexuals since 1980.”

http://www.irqo.org/
http://www.arshamparsi.net/index2.html

N:suppress women

-just one of many sources
http://www.janet-afary.com/news/afarys-book-sexual-politics-in-moder-iran-is-featured-in-the-new-york-review-of-books/

N:sponsor suicide bombers

-Hamas

N: rig elections

it all depends on which sources you want to believe. Many Iranians are obviously not satisfied with the outcome of the recent election.

S:It’s been my observation that whether a country has oil or not is a second order issue for Israel.

-I mentioned this in the context of the West’s continued involvement in Iranian matters. By the way, Iran once supplied israel with oil…

Good. Common ground. We need to work together to disarm existing nuclear powers.

I don’t see how having additional countries, be it Iran, Spain ,Turkey or whoever also develop nuclear weapons is going to make the world a safer or better place.

I agree. But I also do not believe in oligopolies – or a monopoly – of nuclear terror. Do you?

I am not silent on Israel’s possession of such weapons. It is a well known fact.

And I am fairly certain that certain Arab countries will be very happy (without publicly acknowledging it) , if the Israelis destroy Iran’s nuclear capability.

Proof please. In any case, so what?

Would’ Arab countries’ (you really believe that countries ‘think’!) also “be very happy (without publicly acknowledging it) , if the Iranians destroy Israel’s nuclear capability”. Even if they would, would that justify a preemptive attack on Israel?

I would also love to see Israelis and Palestinians live in peace and I don’t think there is any other solution to that particular problem except that all parties in the conflict learn to live with each other somehow.

How about ending apartheid and living together as equal citizens in a normal democratic State? The ‘South African solution’, in other words.

The situation in Iran, Israel and Lebanon goes back a long time. I think most people who are interested in history are aware of the historical events that have led to the current situation, although we might differ in how we interpret these historical events. We can condemn the British for their past involvement ( and how many of today’s conflicts go back to colonial times ?), but what is more important is : what is the solution ?

You can’t talk about Zionism , without also talking about the centuries of persecution and discrimination of Jews in many parts of the world. You cannot discuss modern Israel without taking into account what happened to the Jewish people in the 30’s and 40’s and before. I won’t even go into discussing Lebanon. Of course the Lebanese have the right to defend themselves, but there were so many parties meddling in that place, that is hard to understand who was defending themselves against which enemy.

Personally, I’m tired of Jewish exceptionalism. I certainly can talk about contemporary Zionism without references to other historical events. As for Lebanon, it’s a stretch to claim that Israel was ‘just another meddling party’. Please tell me which other country invaded The Lebanon in recent times causing tens of thousands of deaths.

Why is the current leadership in Iran demonized ? Maybe because they call for the destruction of Israel, execute gay people, don’t allow freedom of speech, suppress women, sponsor suicide bombers and rig elections. I do not agree with lot of the stuff the Israelis get up to. I also have a lot of respect for aspects of Iranian culture and have nothing whatsoever against Iranian people. It is regrettable that the place is being governed by a bunch of religious fanatics, who are not acting in the best interests of the population.

Provide credible references if you intend making assertions such as these here.

As for your emotional outburst, David,you completely missed the point I was trying to make.I never stated that the status quo was a good thing. Adding to the present volatile mix with more nuclear weapons certainly won’t improve things. Obviously, if there was no oil in Iran, nobody would give a damn. Think about that next time you start your car. It might be running on Iranian oil…

It’s been my observation that whether a country has oil or not is a second order issue for Israel. Syria and Lebanon, for instance, have little or no oil.

What matters is whether the gangsters in charge of Israel perceive the country as a threat to Israeli dominance.

‘No War for Oil’ is just a slogan for gullible members of the peace movement to distract attention away from the real war mongers.

And I am fairly certain that certain Arab countries will be very happy (without publicly acknowledging it) , if the Israelis destroy Iran’s nuclear capability.

I would also love to see Israelis and Palestinians live in peace and I don’t think there is any other solution to that particular problem except that all parties in the conflict learn to live with each other somehow. The situation in Iran, Israel and Lebanon goes back a long time. I think most people who are interested in history are aware of the historical events that have led to the current situation, although we might differ in how we interpret these historical events. We can condemn the British for their past involvement ( and how many of today’s conflicts go back to colonial times ?), but what is more important is : what is the solution ?

You can’t talk about Zionism , without also talking about the centuries of persecution and discrimination of Jews in many parts of the world. You cannot discuss modern Israel without taking into account what happened to the Jewish people in the 30′s and 40′s and before. I won’t even go into discussing Lebanon. Of course the Lebanese have the right to defend themselves, but there were so many parties meddling in that place, that is hard to understand who was defending themselves against which enemy.

Why is the current leadership in Iran demonized ? Maybe because they call for the destruction of Israel, execute gay people, don’t allow freedom of speech, suppress women, sponsor suicide bombers and rig elections. I do not agree with lot of the stuff the Israelis get up to. I also have a lot of respect for aspects of Iranian culture and have nothing whatsoever against Iranian people. It is regrettable that the place is being governed by a bunch of religious fanatics, who are not acting in the best interests of the population.

As for your emotional outburst, David,you completely missed the point I was trying to make.I never stated that the status quo was a good thing. Adding to the present volatile mix with more nuclear weapons certainly won’t improve things. Obviously, if there was no oil in Iran, nobody would give a damn. Think about that next time you start your car. It might be running on Iranian oil…

How does having a nuclear armed, imperial, religiously fanatical, warmongering, racist, elitist Israel make the world a better place, Nick?

Just askin’.

I’d like to throw that question back at you. Why is Iran discussed so very much in the western media? Why is it vilified so much? Why is it’s current leadership demonized?

Hezbollah was created as a defensive reaction to the Israeli invasion of The Lebanon in the early 1980s. Don’t you belief in the right of people to defend themselves, their families and homes from armed invasion?

Why do you support ensuring that Iran doesn’t develop nuclear weapons while you remain silent about Israel’s hundreds of nukes and large biological and chemical weapons program? How about a nuclear free middle east – or do you have a double standard?

Speaking of sovereignty, Joe Biden seems to have put a new wrinkle on what it really means. On Sunday he claimed in an interview that Israel has the ‘sovereign right’ to deal with Iran’s ‘nuclear threat’ in any way it sees fit, including military attacks:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/05/AR2009070502731.html

It’s really quite funny. Can we now expect other nations to exercise their ‘sovereignty’ by pre-emptive attacks on their neighbours if they suspect they are a threat? No way baby. America bends over for Israel and Israel only.

Obama and Biden could develop into a durable comedy team, and I think we’re going to need some comic relief in the next few years. Gotta think of a good name for the duo. How about the Chickenshit Brothers?